Podcast: Basil's Table - Banking On The Future In A Climate Of Change (888 Co-operative Causeway)(Special)

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https://player.whooshkaa.com/episode?id=580659

Antony McMullen from Co-operative Bonds organised this particular event via 888 Co-operative Causeway Basil's Table interview series to explore the challenges and opportunities for customer-owned banks in the post Royal Commission environment.

The main speaker for this event is Rowan Dowland who heads up the Bank Australia's strategy and planning area.

While this event is not directly operated by Designing Open Democracy, this may be of interest to our community in providing the background context for next month talk "Beyond Corporate Social Responsibility towards Economic Democracy (Cooperatives)" by Antony McMullen who co-founded both Co-operative Bonds and 888 Co-operative Causeway.

This was recorded live with minimum editing on the February 25 @ 6:00 pm - 7:30 pm at the Kelvin Club.

888 Co-operative Causeway Event Link: https://www.888causeway.coop/event/basils-table-banking-on-the-future-in-a-climate-of-change/

The summary and analysis below were drafted by Claude Code from the episode's automated transcript, to bring this older post up to the standard of the newer ones. The original automated transcript is preserved in the collapsible section at the foot of the post. Quotes are reconstructed from an auto-generated transcript — verify against the recording before citing.

888 Co-operative Causeway, and a movement hiding in plain sight

Antony McMullen opens the inaugural Basil's Table with an Acknowledgement of Country for the Kulin Nation, noting "the very many Indigenous and Aboriginal cooperatives across the state, many of which go under the radar" and pointing to the sixth cooperative principle — cooperation among cooperatives — as a concrete way the movement can support reconciliation. He explains 888's name: "888 is a balance between work and recreation and rest. Co-operative is about the relationship that we have with each other."

The theme — "Banking on the future in a climate of change" — was chosen against the backdrop of the 2019–20 bushfires, "a time where it's sometimes difficult to hold some hope or optimism" — hence a series built around "people who are doing good stuff, both seasoned and emerging."

Antony sets the scale of the sector before introducing the speakers: in 1996, a quarter of Australians were credit union members; today, "eight out of ten of us are members of a cooperative or a mutual" — most without realising it. He reads from historian Gary Lewis, writing in 1996 shortly before his death:

"Since the Second World War, Australian credit unions have defeated usury, pioneered innovative financial services, improved competition in and moulded the shape of the finance industry, and broadened the democratisation of wealth... Australian credit unions first introduced loan protection insurance at no extra cost, and free direct payroll deductions for members. The first ATMs were in a credit union. EFTPOS came out of the credit union movement in Australia. The first international Visa ATM withdrawal in the world came out of the credit union movement, in 1984." — Gary Lewis, quoted by Antony McMullen

He also reads out a 1956 "MUTUAL AID" acrostic from the Young Christian Workers movement — Money when you need it, Under easy repayment terms, Training in thrift, United fund of members' savings, Available for loans, Low interest rates, Aid to lessen financial worry, Independence from exploitation, Deposit interest better than bank — as evidence the movement has always articulated its purpose plainly, well before "purpose" became a marketing term.

From real estate to Australia's first cooperative bank: Rowan Dowland's 28 years

Rowan Dowland's account of his career doubles as a potted history of Bank Australia itself. He started in real estate, training with one of Melbourne's largest firms, but found "my values were not aligned to the values of the property industry... it was about, I win when you lose." After four years he made what he calls a "180-degree turn" into the Ministry of Housing, working with homeless people, women's refuges and community housing organisations for about a decade.

Looking for a model that combined "the commercial discipline of running a business" with "a strong sense of social purpose," he followed his mother — a teacher and credit union "member rep" — into SEC Credit Union, then Victoria's largest. "I'd never been a customer of a bank," he says. "I'd only ever been a member of a credit union."

Over the following 28 years, the credit union absorbed roughly 72 others — among them the ANSETT, David Syme and CSIRO staff credit unions — growing from $50 million to around $7 billion in assets. In 2011 it became Australia's first cooperative bank; in 2015 it was renamed Bank Australia.

"For somebody who, all those years ago, wanted to test the hypothesis of: can a business exist for a purpose beyond profit maximisation — I think we're about to give ourselves a tick." — Rowan Dowland

"You guys have just got bigger, but you've not got better": the 2002 pivot

The growth-through-merger strategy of the 1990s came at a cost. Dowland recalls listening in on calls to the credit union's call centre from members of long-standing, identity-based credit unions — staff funds for the State Electricity Commission, CSIRO scientists, airline pilots:

"You guys have just got bigger, but you've not got better. I don't understand why you exist any longer... You represented a banking option for people who could identify with a defined community — and you are no longer that. I don't understand it any more."

Dowland took the problem to the board and to the CEO at the time, who sent him to spend several months visiting cooperatives internationally. He came back with a reframing: the credit union movement had defined itself by jobs and geography — parish credit unions, industry credit unions, workplace credit unions — and that basis no longer held a fragmenting membership together. The new basis would be attitudes and values:

"The future of cooperatives in banking, and our cooperative, was attitudes and values. It's what people believe. If people believe in a strong sense of community, if people believe that we as a business can help empower them to use their money in ways that create strong social, environmental, cultural and economic impact — then I think we've defined a new space in the Australian banking sector." — Rowan Dowland

Dowland frames this as continuity rather than reinvention: the cooperative banks founded in Germany in the mid-1800s worked the same way — bringing together "unbanked" artisans and farmers around a shared community of interest, so they could save together and direct that capital toward the things that mattered to them.

From $650 million to $7 billion, on values rather than price

By the time of this 2020 talk, the 2002 pivot is presented as having paid off dramatically. Bank Australia's brand has existed only since 2017, yet had already reached #42 in Australia's most trusted brands within three years.

The most striking figures concern January 2020 — the month following the Black Summer bushfires. Bank Australia recorded its highest-ever monthly intake of new customers: roughly 4,000 people switching from the big four banks, with an average age of 34, and — Dowland stresses — 87% of them did not factor price into the decision.

"Whilst we would never trade away price... banks can compete on purpose. You can define a space for a cooperative bank in the marketplace simply by meeting people's expectations around doing good in the world, as opposed to doing harm in the world." — Rowan Dowland

He frames this generationally: Bank Australia's average customer age has been falling for years — a deliberate response to a demographic cliff the credit union faced in the early 1990s, when its membership skewed older with few new borrowers and the business risked "falling off a cliff."

The Royal Commission that no mutual bank was called to

Bank Australia is, in Dowland's words, "the tiniest member" of the Australian Banking Association — sitting, he jokes, at the "naughty boys' table at the end of the dining table" alongside the CEOs of the big four. The membership is deliberate: Bank Australia is part of the Global Alliance for Banking on Values, and Dowland argues the cooperative sector has a responsibility to use its seat to influence the wider industry.

The Banking Royal Commission (2017–2019) is the backdrop the whole conversation sits against. As Dowland points out:

"Not a single cooperative or mutual bank appeared before the Royal Commission. We all wrote submissions, but we weren't called — not because of anything we were doing wrong... The Royal Commission was called for one simple reason: banks forgot why they existed in the first place. They lost their sense of purpose." — Rowan Dowland

His read on the Commission's aftermath is cautiously optimistic — he believes the major banks have genuinely absorbed the lesson — but argues this raises the bar for cooperative and mutual banks too: "we have a responsibility to continually raise the bar for responsible banking."

Cooperatives go where the big four won't: housing, Indigenous home ownership, clean energy

The most concrete part of the conversation is Dowland's account of markets the cooperative model can enter precisely because it isn't optimising for short-term shareholder return.

Community housing: about a decade before this talk, Bank Australia entered the community housing sector "no bank in the country would touch" — not because the lending was unsound, but because community housing boards and management teams weren't yet equipped to take on debt. Bank Australia spent roughly two years building that capability before lending. The result was around $400 million in community housing finance — a market that, once de-risked, was eventually picked up at scale by a federal government housing finance vehicle (referred to in the recording as "NIFIC", almost certainly the newly-established National Housing Finance and Investment Corporation), using its AAA credit rating to lend more cheaply than Bank Australia's own BBB+ ever could.

"It probably wouldn't have happened if the cooperative hadn't been there first — building capacity, building capability, getting these organisations to a point where they could take debt on. Cooperatives go into markets that don't work — they're broken markets — and ask: how can you fix this?" — Rowan Dowland

Indigenous home ownership: on the day of the talk, Dowland describes a "most amazing conversation" with Bank Australia's Impact Finance Manager about a new partnership with Indigenous Business Australia to provide home loans to Indigenous Australians who would otherwise be considered "unbankable" — with IBA and government sharing the credit risk.

Clean energy: a partnership with the Clean Energy Finance Corporation had just produced what Dowland describes as the lowest-cost home loan in Australia, conditional on the home being built one star above the statutory sustainability minimum — using the discount to pull the housing stock itself toward better environmental performance.

In each case Dowland frames the cooperative's role as temporary by design: prove the model, build the market, and then "the four major banks will want to come in" — "absolutely fine, because we seeded the market. And then we'll move on to the next thing."

Basil Varghese: "the pursuit of wealth for the sake of wealth... is obscene"

Basil Varghese — described in the introduction as a long-time community development practitioner, and Antony McMullen's own teacher in the field in the 1990s — supplies the evening's philosophical counterweight. Asked by Dowland whether profit maximisation is really an acceptable "default position" for an economy, Basil's answer is unambiguous:

"I don't think it is okay... I think the pursuit of wealth for the sake of wealth, in my book, is obscene. ... I'm always left with an existential issue when I see a homeless person. Here I am, in this country — supposed to be wealthy — and yet we have homeless people. I am diminished when I know another human being is diminished."

He extends this into a broader concept of poverty — not just the absence of money, but "the poverty of imagination": the inability to be sensitive to a poem, to enjoy theatre or literature or art. Good banking, in his framing, is part of what provides the material sustenance that makes that fuller life possible in the first place.

Basil also picks up Dowland's own language about movement versus industry — Dowland describes the credit union sector as having started as a movement, calcified into an industry, and now needing to become a movement again — and connects it to a role for elders: "circles of elders who affirm young people to get on with it, whatever it is," rather than policing them with performative individual virtue (his examples: counting glasses of wine, or cigarettes) while ignoring change at "a systemic and structural level."

From the floor: Dollarmites, the "Power of Five," and getting cooperatives onto the curriculum

The Q&A ranges widely:

• Financial literacy and "a bank for kids": Dowland is candid about the mutual sector's missed opportunities here, citing the Commonwealth Bank's Dollarmites school banking program — "very clever and very shrewd," paying schools for every account opened, achieving near-universal penetration, but later criticised for effectively marketing to children. His own approach is to start with adults: Bank Australia's "Faces of Bank Australia 2020" callout for customer stories had to be closed within 12 hours after receiving 160 responses — including, at #3, a five-year-old who said he banked with Bank Australia "because I want to save the animals."
• An audience member's own story: Ivana describes borrowing $75,000 from a credit union (now part of CUA) decades earlier — money no bank would lend — to relocate a house onto a small block of land and convert it into three units for clients of Kildonan, a Melbourne homelessness and family-violence support service. She repaid the loan over five years and has banked with the credit union for 35 years.
• Cooperatives and the curriculum: Dowland traces the founding of the Business Council of Co-operatives and Mutuals (BCCM) to the end of the UN's 2012 International Year of Cooperatives — an initiative he, Melina Morrison and Greg Walton set up specifically because, at the time, "cooperatives and mutuals were not in the curriculum on any MBA anywhere in the country." He recounts being told by a corporate lawyer that he routinely advises clients never to form a cooperative — apparently unaware that Bank Australia, like most cooperatives, operates as a company under the Corporations Act, which the BCCM has since had amended to formally define "mutual" as a status.
• The "sledgehammer" question: asked how to break a financial system structurally built around "growth, profit, growth, profit, returns to shareholders," Dowland's answer is about language, not mechanism. Most people joining Bank Australia have no idea — and don't care — that it's a cooperative; what moves them is "the role of money in society" and the ability to create positive impact. The job of the movement, he argues, is to "have the conversation with people using language that resonates with them," not to lead with ownership-structure jargon that "shuts people down."
• Closing: Dowland's "why I'm so confident we can rebuild a movement" answer is a referral statistic — every new Bank Australia customer tells, on average, 11 other people, and pointedly refuses any incentive to do so: "We want nothing from you... give us nothing other than make us proud to be a customer of the bank." Basil connects this to what he calls "the Power of Five" — five people, each bringing five more — and Antony closes by noting the coincidence: five is also the legal minimum number of people required to register a cooperative in Australia.

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Raw automated transcript

**Warning there may be errors** Welcome, everybody, some gentle tones. That was the xylophone that was used for ABC radio very few years ago, when this was the ABC radio studio. You would have woken up to that from a certain vintage. So welcome, everyone, to the inaugural Basil's Table. I'd firstly like to start by acknowledging the righty people of the Kulin Nation, and I pay my respects to their elders past and present. And in particular, I'd like to mention the very many indigenous and Aboriginal cooperatives across the state, many of which go under the radar. And I think there's a great opportunity with the cooperative movement to make links. The sixth principle of cooperatives is cooperation amongst cooperatives. So I think that's something that we can all sort of focus on in terms of our duty to support reconciliation, restitution and all those sorts of things that we need to think about. My name is Antony. I'm the chair of the 888 Co-operative causeway Limited. Who thought of that? No. The idea is 888 is a balance between work and recreation and rest. Co-operative is about the relationship that we have with each other. We're working towards the common good, which is the causeway, which is our little headquarters, which is just down the road. So our little cooperative has a cooperative desk space, and our cooperative is a member of this club, is a corporate member. So this is how we can run events right here as we have it tonight. But this is a bit different. We're trying something a bit different tonight. So the theme tonight is banking on the future in a climate of change. obviously, in australia, we've been through a very difficult time as a country in terms of the tragic bushfires. And it's a time where it's sometimes difficult to hold some hope or optimism or something that, you know, something creative. So the idea behind this series of discussions is to actually talk to people who are doing good stuff, both seasoned and emerging, and make links between people and come along. So that's why we started off with a bit of food and a drink and introducing ourselves to each other and building links. And often that's a value as well of going to an event like this. So in 1996, a quarter of all australians were members of what was then called a credit union. So you still get credit unions, you still get building societies. Often now they're called customer-owned banks, but they're all the same thing. It's where members have an ownership stake. Today, fast forward, I don't know what the proportion of customer-owned or member-owned financial institutions are of this figure, but eight out of 10 of us are members of a cooperative or a mutual. A lot of us don't know that, but I reckon most people here would. It's like a pretty educated world. So you probably know that stat already, I reckon. So in 1996, historian Gary Lewis, who recently passed away, had some interesting observations to make about credit unions. And I thought I'd kick things off before introducing our speakers with a couple of his observations. And I've just gotten to that age, you know, I'm in my 40s and now I'm finding, you know how you still look at people and they go like this? And suddenly, it's only the last year. So I'm just getting on top. A few years. All right. Since the Second World War, australian credit unions have defeated usury, pioneered innovative financial services, improved competition in and moulded the shape of the finance industry and broadened the democratization of wealth. They have demonstrated that ordinary people, cooperating to meet their financial needs, employing appropriate technology and expertise, can achieve quite remarkable economic outcomes. This study, this book, shows the ability of credit unions to apply unorthodox democratic remedies to problems that would normally cripple other businesses. australian credit unions first include loan protection insurance at no extra cost, free direct payroll deductions for members. The first ATMs were in a credit union. EFTPOS came out of the credit union movement in australia. The first international visa ATM withdrawal in the world came out of the credit union movement in 1984. Telephone activated home banking services. That's why I remember using that when I joined Endeavour Credit Union back in the day. You'd ring up and you'd use your touch tone and you'd be able to move money across and all that. It was very, very innovative. You probably still can do that in some quarters. Credit unions have been at the forefront of providing value and things like the chip card was a first for credit unions. The largest providers of personal loans and visa debt cards in australia when this book was written. That was then. At the moment, we've got a lot of innovation happening with start up banks. They're a platform. I heard on the radio a particular start up platform type of bank had... They said, Oh, yeah, we can give these great interest rates. And then I asked about how many people they employ. And, you know, it was very low. It's like 40 or 50 people employed by this new sort of start up bank. So there is innovation going out there. And it'd be interesting to hear from our speaker about what's happening in that area. But the purpose of tonight really is to go a little deeper than the day to day, to go a little bit about why people get involved in this area that we call the social economy, why people would get involved in credit unions or housing co-ops and various things like that. And again, in this history book, I found something that I just thought I would mention. Is it an acrostic when you say the words and each word has a thing? It's like an acrostic. My kids do it. I think that's an acrostic, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mutual aid. Now, this was in 1956 by the Young Christian Workers, who are a big part of the Whole Credit Union movement. Mutual aid. Money when you need it. Under easy repayment terms, training in thrift, United Fund of Members Savings, available for loans, low interest rates, aid to lessor financial worry, independence from exploitation, deposit interest better than bank. And so hopefully that's still the case. Mutual aid. Now, again, I'm struggling. I really need glasses. Okay, but I would actually like to get to the most important part, which is introducing these two people. So we have Basil and his table. And we have Rowan Dowland from Bank australia. So Basil, you would have read the bio in the promotional material. My relationship with Basil started when he taught me community development back in the day in the 90s. And we kept that up. And he's been someone that's committed himself to community development, development of community over many, many years. So he is bringing that experience along tonight. Rowan Dowland heads up strategy and planning at Bank australia. So I assume he's got the telescope out at times and is looking out. But tonight we're going to also look a little bit inwards and seeing what this social economy leader has to say about his commitment to his work. So without further ado, I'm going to hand the mic over and we're going to start the Basil's Table. I've got a microphone here. Well, thank you, Antony, for that introduction, and thank you all those people who have come here today, which is wonderful. So thank you, those people that I do know, and those that I'm going to get to know. I really appreciate the fact that you have come here. This is... just good to take a ride. Hello? Yeah. Did you hear me before? I will go to repeat that. No. And it's actually a great honor and privilege here to be with Rowan, whom I, we have actually had two conversations. And he is a very impressive man who has committed himself really to an area of life that I am not all that familiar with, because I, when it comes to money, I'm hopeless. As a matter of fact, friends who know me know that I'm actually just terrible when it comes to money management. And yet, I do know that money has been useful, as to quote someone famous, tainted as it is. It actually is important to get things done. So, I've now got more and more involved, mainly because of Antony, with the 888, and understand that we really need to get our heads around the whole aspect of profit. And we also have to get our heads around the importance of what is it to be not greedy. But I'll elaborate on that later. Well, I'd like to now ask Rowan, because we have this thing. Should you have the first question or should I have the first question? Now, I decided, you're my guest or our guest, you should actually be the person who actually responds to my question. We flip these backwards and forwards so many times. But hopefully, we will dial it. So, in terms of the question here, what is it about corporatives that attracted you to one and caused you to stay for the past 25 years or so? Thanks, Basil, and thanks for the introduction as well, Antony. The book that Antony referred to tonight, there's only two copies of it in australia, I understand. No, Antony's got one and I've got one. You've got one as well, there's three. Fantastic. I was given a copy of this book on the very first day that I joined our credit union, which was the SEC credit union. Some of you may remember that at the time. It was the largest GELD SEC, cracking how things change in Victoria. I still carry my copy around and I still referred to it. I'm talking to new staff who join the now a bank, customer-owned cooperative bank. Absolutely by coincidence, the paragraph that you read out tonight is one of the paragraphs that I share with all new people coming to join the bank. because I just think it's so critically important that as we're building banks for the future, we never forget our past and we never forget our legacy and we never forget those people, those pioneers, those people who were brave and bold, who had the courage to actually form a cooperative or credit union movement in australia. If we lose sight of the values that the bravery, the sense of purpose that our founders had in australia, then I think we actually lose something from our culture and our DNA. So, Basil, why did I join the cooperative movement, which is over 28 years ago? I don't know a lot about money either, I've got to tell you. I'm not a banker at all. But there is a driving hypothesis, I guess, that I've been trying to prove throughout my life. And my career started within the property industry here in Melbourne, in the real estate industry. From a very young boy, I always wanted to be in the property industry, real estate industry, and I was offered the opportunity to study and do a cadetship in those days with one of the largest real estate firms here in Melbourne. But within a very, very short period of time, I realized that my values were not aligned to the values of the property industry, which were all about individuals, commission driven individuals, seeking to acquire wealth without having a sense of community. It was about, I win when you lose. And I stayed within that industry for four years and then took an about base, 180 degree turn. And went from quite a privileged career and position in the real estate industry and joined the Ministry of housing here, working with homeless people across Melbourne and working with women's refuges, working with the Gill Memorial and other institutions that were providing housing and accommodation to homeless people and worked within both the government housing sector and the community housing sector for about 10 years in total. My next move was to try and find a business model that combined the commercial discipline of running a business together with the experience of the things, the aspects that I liked of the government and community sector, which was a real strong sense of social purpose and social justice and existing for the purpose of enhancing the quality of people and their lives in a strong sense of community. And my mum had been a teacher and she was a member of one of the teacher based credit unions here in Melbourne. And she was what was called in those days a member rep that they had. And so in fact, I'd never been a customer of a bank. I'd only ever been a member of a credit union. So I thought I would try the experience of joining a credit union here in Melbourne and join the SEC credit union, which at the time was the largest credit union here in Victoria. And my sense was that the model had enormous opportunity. I think there was a period of time with credit unions where they lost their way. They lost a sense of purpose. But I believe strongly in the cooperative model, both and looked internationally at the strength of the cooperative model, not just in banking, but across a broad range of industries and sectors. And I believe that if we could build a strong cooperative and align with a strong sense of purpose, then we could create a sustainable business model. And that's going back into the 90s. And I've been in the industry now for 28 years. We've built a credit union myself and my colleagues have built a credit union into australia's first cooperative bank. Those that are not familiar with Bank australia, we became the first cooperative bank in australia in 2011. In Europe, cooperative banks, take a country like Germany. Germany's banking system is clearly very significant. Banking industry, about 45% of banking in Germany is done through cooperative banks. And it kind of always intrigued me that you can have such strong cooperative banks in other parts of the world, particularly Europe, but less so here. And one of the ambitions that we did have was to establish australia's first cooperative bank, which we did in 2011. In 2015, we renamed that bank, Bank australia. And ever since doing that, we've been growing the business very, very strong and very successfully. But it hasn't always been enough challenges and enough opportunities over that period of time to keep me engaged in the business. And we had lost our way in the late 90s. In fact, let me just tell you the story very briefly. At that time, I believe it was essential to build scale within credit unions. So when I started, it was a 50 million, we managed $50 million in assets. Today, we manage around $7 billion in assets. And we would still be describing ourselves as sub-scale. So as part of the way of being able to build scale in the 90s, we acquired a number of credit unions, smaller credit unions. We brought them into the group. So whilst I started in the SEC credit union, I also worked in the ANSET credit union and the David Syme credit union. We acquired the CSIRO staff credit union and a number of other credit unions. And in fact, today, there's some 72 credit unions that form the Bank australia group. But what we discovered in late 90s was that without a strong sense of purpose, then you can lose your way very quickly and you can become quite irrelevant to the customers that own either the credit union or the bank. And I remember listening in on a conversation down in the Latrobe Valley. We have a business in the Latrobe Valley based off the SEC days. And I remember listening to callers coming into the call center and they were saying things like, you guys have just got bigger, but you've not got better. I don't understand why you exist any longer. I understood the purpose behind the credit union as a scientist with the CSIRO or a pilot with ANTCEP or someone, an editor at David Syme. You represented a banking opportunity or banking option for people that could associate, could identify with a defined group, a defined community, and you are no longer the staff credit unit, the pilots or empower workers. I don't understand it anymore. I sat down with the CEO at the time and said, I think we're actually in strife here. We've been building this business and today, and at that point in time, we're probably 650 million dollars in assets. We were growing, we were existing as opposed to having a strong sense of understanding why we existed and the purpose behind why we existed. John at the time said, look, you're right. This is not a way to build this business if we can't define, articulate our strong sense of purpose. You go and spend a few months spending time with cooperatives around the world, to try and understand what it is that makes those businesses successful. I came back in australia after a number of months and said, I think I've discovered it. Now, what we've been doing as we've been building this business, we lost sight of a strong sense of purpose. People could no longer identify with the business and we've defined the business according historically according to jobs or geography. That's how the credit unions were. They were the industry based credit unions, they were parish based credit unions or they were community based credit unions defined by geography. I said the future is no longer jobs or geography or vocation or location. The future of cooperatives in banking and our cooperative was attitudes and values. It's what people believe. If people believe in a strong sense of community, if people believe that we as a business can help and power them to use their monies in ways that create strong social, environmental, cultural and economic impact. If we can use money in a way that enhances their lives, enhances the lives of others, and improves the quality of life that we exist in terms of the planet and the environment, then I think we've defined a new space in the australian banking sector. That's what we did in 2002. We put a merger together that gives a bit more scale, but on the basis of saying, we're going to be a business that now defines its purpose, not according to jobs and geography, but according to the old traditional credit union values. You bring a community of interests together, and through that community of interests, now defined by our attitudes and values, not jobs and geography, we're going to get those people to save together, and we're going to invest those monies in ways that improve the quality of their lives, the lives of others and the planet. We're going to use that money in ways that make a positive impact in the community, in the world, around the issues that are important to them. What I really love about that is that it is completely consistent with the principles, the philosophies, the values that underpin cooperatives, banks that were formed in Germany in the mid 1800s. So they brought together groups of artisans and farmers who were unbanked, said, let's save together and let's provide an opportunity for these communities to bank. And we're doing exactly the same today. The issues change for our customers, and that's the exciting part. That's the thing that keeps us quite dynamic. We say these days that we need to be a good bank because you can't trade off values. You need to be a good bank and a force for good. You need to be able to compete with banking product and services and technology and all the things that Anthony referred to, Visa cards and the like. But none of that's going to differentiate us in the marketplace. It's being a force for good that differentiates us in the marketplace. So we know from our customers the things that are important to them. We know that the number one issue that's important to our customers at the moment is climate change, the future of the planet. And we know that if we can align their money, invest their money in ways that create positive environmental impact, then we're meeting our purpose, we're meeting our needs as a cooperative. And at any one time we know the 10 or 11 most important issues that are important to our customers, climate change, renewable energy, fair treatment of refugees, closing the gap on indigenous mental health issues, homelessness, house affordability. We know what those issues are. And we continue to align the business of banking to those issues and invest our customers' money in ways that have positive impacts in those areas. And I've been doing it for 28 years. I can share with you that last month, so the business is now 62 years old, as I said, manages about $7 billion in assets. Last year, we attracted more people into the bank than any other month in the past 62 years. Purely on the basis of the principles that underpinned the cooperative when we formed it in 1957 and the same principles that underpinned cooperatives when they were formed in the 1850s. Providing a values-based or values-led approach to banking. The vast majority of people who joined us last month, record number, almost 4,000 people joined us, switched out of the four major banks to join Bank australia last month, joined us because they wanted to empower themselves in a way that helped make a positive difference on climate change. It was the fires that occurred throughout the summer period where people said, I need to do something here. We can see that, we can track that throughout the year. We know there's a campaign about to be launched around animal exports. We have a strong position on animal exports. You may have seen some of our advertising. The things we do, do the things we don't do. And as the community becomes aware and more aware that they can empower themselves in ways that bring about positive changes, simply through the way they invest their money, they bank their everyday banking, we've seen influx of business coming into the Bank australia based purely on a strong sense of purpose, based purely on a strong sense of cooperative values. And that's what keeps me here now after 28, almost 30 years, and I'm kind of getting towards the end of my career and bringing on the next generation of people to take the business forward. But what I'm hoping that they learn either from myself and my experience or reading the book is that the principles of being a cooperative still stand true today. They've stood the test of time. They are as relevant today as they were in the 1850s, as they were in 1957 when we were born. And they can still capture the imagination of people. And to get 4,000 people, when I look at the 4,000 people who joined us in January, the average age was 34. What? That's amazing. None of them, well, none, I won't say none. Something in the order of about 87% of them did not factor price into their decision to switch out of one of the full major banks to Bank australia. Whilst we would never trade away price, price is critically important of being cooperative. They joined us because of principles and values and a strong sense of I want to, I want my money to have a positive impact in the world. Now people used to say to me banks can only compete on price. And I said we would never trade price away. But banks can compete on purpose and you can define a space for a cooperative bank in the marketplace simply by meeting people's expectations around doing good in the world as opposed to doing harm in the world. That's a really long answer to your question. But I've been at it for 28 years. And I kind of, as committed to it today, now the only reason why I'll step out of the business is because I've kind of hit retirement. It's not because I'm any less committed to the purpose of the bank today than I was 28 years ago. And when you see 4,000 people join the bank in January, and this month it's probably over, it'll be over 3,000. And again, the average age is going to be somewhere around about 34, 35. And they're empowering themselves to bring about positive change in the world. That's incredibly cool. For somebody who kind of, you know, all those years ago wanted to test the hypothesis of can a business exist for a purpose beyond profit maximization, I think we're about to give ourselves a tick. Thank you. The other amazing part about that is that our brand has only been in the market place really since 2017. So it's a very new brand. Whilst the business has been operated under all these different names for some years, it's really only been known from Bank australia since 2017. And in the last week, we appeared as number 42 in australia's most trusted brands, which gives me… The meaning of life, really. I just think, no, banks have lost people's trust. That's why we had a Royal Commission. So, within three years to be in the top number 42 and top 50 most trusted brands in australia, that gives me great hope that the people who will take over from me, who will be younger and smarter and more, they have got an amazing future to take that business up for three years from being the 42nd most trusted brand in the country to number one, all based on values. That's for people who understand the value of co-operatives and understand the value of co-operative values. I think that just is something, and many of us have been beating the drum for that for many years. Their future is incredible. Well, it's interesting that none of the credit unions or the banks had to appear for the Royal Commission, while all the others had to. Not a single co-operative or mutual bank appeared before the Royal Commission. We all wrote submissions, but we didn't appear before. The Royal Commission was not called because of the business practices of the co-operative or mutual banks in the country. We know why it was called. We sit, it's interesting, as a very small bank, we sit at the table of the australian Bankers Association. Some people say, why would you do that? Why would you sit in the same room as all the other investor owned banks in the country? We're part of a global alliance for banking on values. And part of our commitment as being a member of the global alliance is that we try and influence banking, try to influence the banking sector. So we believe we have a responsibility to sit at the table. It's kind of interesting. We're the tiniest member of the ABA. You're sitting at the table and there's the CEOs and deputy CEOs of all the largest banks in the country. It's a bit like when I was a kid, the naughty boys used to sit on the car table at the end of the dining table. Well, we're kind of the odd one out. We always sit at the end of the table. We're the big guys at one end and we're at the other end. So we understand we were very close to the decisions around why Royal Commission was called. And we understood what the practices were. And we take great pride in the fact that there was no mutual cooperative bank that was part of the Royal Commission. Why was the Royal Commission called? The Royal Commission was called for one simple reason, in our sense. It's because banks forgot why they existed in the first place. They lost their sense of purpose. I just talked about, I think we're very clear on our sense of purpose. We exist for the purpose of creating mutual prosperity in the form of positive social, environmental, cultural, and economic outcomes. That's what we do. The four major banks, or the investor owned banks, existed for the purpose of profit maximization and incentivizing executives to earn very large remuneration at the expense of their customer and their communities. That's why there was a Royal Commission. They forgot the sense of purpose. And we could kind of see it as a member of the ABA. We could see that there was a stark difference between our purpose and the purpose of the four major banks. And it's a great thing that the Royal Commission was called. Really great thing. I think that the... I have to give credit to the banks that were either part of the process or as in terms of more than being called to present or at least invest under. But I think the penny has dropped with these guys. And people say, I don't get sitting around and then be on change. I actually think that it will. From what I see, I think the Royal Commission and other businesses like us that can demonstrate that you can be a successful business by being a purpose-led and values-based business. We will influence the way other businesses operate. And those guys have learned the lesson. Those guys have learned the lesson that whilst they have to be profitable as we do, there has to be a way so they cannot trade off their social license for why they exist. And proof will be in the pudding and time to tell and everything else. But I sense that there is a much stronger realization and now amongst the investor-owned banks in the country than there's ever been before. Which does, I guess, create a challenge for us too. One of the things that we say in Bank australia is that we have a responsibility to continually raise the bar for responsible banking. And if the Royal Commission has any positive impact, it will change the behaviors that occur within investor-owned banks in the country, which means that we need to raise the bar higher in order to be able to demonstrate that there are other things that banks can do. There are other responsibilities and roles and purposes the banks can deliver. That's our role. But I do take some pride, I think, as everybody in the mutual banking sector should, that we weren't part of that process. It wasn't called because of anything we were doing wrong. Right. When we, Basil and I kind of caught up for coffee a couple of times, I got to understand Basil and what makes Basil tick and his background. I thought I would ask him a couple of questions too. So, the first one that I wanted to ask you, Basil, was around the pursuit of profit without purpose. So I kind of talked about we have a purpose, what's a profitable profit maximization is not our purpose. So I want to ask Basil, the pursuit of profit without purpose assumes a couple of things. It assumes that the point of life is to maximize financial wealth, that we as individuals live in an adversarial world and that this situation is inevitable. And I wanted to put to Basil, we see these ideas as modern day truths, many of us, perhaps not us, but others do. More so, ours, others default position. So is it right that profit maximization is a default position? And is that okay? Well, I don't think it is okay. That's from where I'm coming from. And I think that the pursuit of wealth for the sake of wealth in my book is obscene. because you just basically, and I know people who do that. So it's another thing saying I need a legitimate income to live on, but to pursue wealth for the sake of wealth and seek, totally identify with that and all that matters is to me, a most dehumanized human being. They might sound very good in terms of saying whether they drive what sort of car or have a mansion, blah, blah, blah, or throw a party for $21 million. I personally have never been impressed by that. I just thought it was so pathetic when I see so many people who are struggling just to live, to live like in Melbourne. I mean, I'm always left with an existential issue when I see a homeless person. Often, I'm left with a sense by saying, here I am in this country, supposed to be wealthy, and here we have homeless people. Yet I also know there are people who are concerned about it, but I've been involved with that and it's like knocking your head on a brick wall, because you find that really a lot of the development are actually in the hands of the developers and they're into social housing, which I'm not against. But if you bring up the notion of homelessness, they run a mile. They just don't want to hear you. It sort of reminds me going back in the 60s, this is it, tells you how old I am. It goes back to the 60s, is I can remember when we talked about indigenous issues, very few people actually even considered it. At least now you have a discourse in society. So there are ghosts. I like to sort of think that the sense of there's something, I am diminished when I know another human being is diminished. The existential issue for me is, am I a part of this as well? because I have a reasonable accommodation. I think I've shared this with friends of mine, like even when I went to Kenya, or even to Moleste, you go to a hotel, you stay in a hotel, and it's wonderful. I enjoy the accommodation, I enjoy the food, I enjoy the company, I enjoy the conversation, I enjoy the wine, I enjoy the food. And yet, when I went to bed, I was aware of the fact that there were hundreds of people who did not even have a bed. Now, what does that mean? Does that mean I have to be out there in the streets without a bed? No, I couldn't do that. Although I had a friend of mine who did precisely that and he died with them. I don't think I am that virtuous or call to such courage. I just don't have that. But I think it is incumbent on us to think about, take something like homelessness. I think we have some very good models. I mean, I talk about the Finnish model. They have actually sorted it out. Whenever I talk to groups concerned with homelessness, they say about things like, oh, it's all the drug addiction. True. It's all the sort of abuse they've had. True. You can have all this therapeutic intervention. But I say, for goodness sake, have a roof over their head first. Then you can bring in all the notion of how to make them feel comfortable or wanted or loved, whatever term you want to use. Now, the reason I suppose I think social banking, I don't know whether you're taking homelessness on. We go. There you are. He does. So that's good news. Now, what I also wanted to share is that I think you mentioned about culture. We must have mentioned about culture. I think what's happened to us is that there's always been a tension between my individualism and how I relate to others. I think that's been a perennial story, at least in the West. And I suspect also in the East, but we sort of culturally do it differently. And I think what's happened now is that apart from that, we also become more and more commodified in the way we engage in the world. That even good acts are seen in monetary terms. So we have even lost a sense, like altruism, it's sort of airbrushed. It's like it doesn't exist. And you can have some very good sophisticated arguments to say it doesn't exist. And so I'm not suggesting in any ways that I have the solutions, but I would like to think we should look at how we actually become human in this process of being connected. I know from experience that whenever I experience a disconnect, I experience a pain. And whenever I experience a connectedness, I experience a joy. Now, we can talk about that very much in terms of individuals and individual attributions. So for example, years and years I used to talk about poverty. And, you know, you could go back to absolute poverty, relative poverty, and poverty to quote Gandhi is a form of violence. But the real poverty is also to do with the poverty of the imagination, the poverty of living, the poverty of having a passion, the poverty of not being able to be sensitive to a poem, or not being able to enjoy a piece of theatre, or not being able to enjoy the magnificence of literature, or not being able to see the importance of art. And I think to do that, that's where I'd like to think good banking comes. It's actually got to have a certain level of material sustenance to be able to enjoy this. And I think life is meant to be enjoyed. I don't subscribe to the theory that, you know, you've got to somehow have a painful existence. It doesn't mean that we don't experience pain. All of us in life, as we journey through life, experience a pain. And it could be a pain on a number of levels. Now, as Antony said, we'd like to go deeper into this. So, I'd like your sort of reflections on, I think you're doing a great service, incidentally. So, I'm not in any way trying to diminish it. But I'd like us to sort of think about, how do we go now from a local, just on that basis, I think the great thing about in the past, what I've known about, say, the 1800s of other corporates, it is geographically based. So, you had a community that was actually that knew each other. And then you had a community that actually cared for one another. We don't have that anymore, entirely, except for certain groups. Like, when I go and see my cousins in India, they have it. Or, all my uncles have passed away. They used to sort of just live next door. And then they used to talk, play cards, and then go home and talk about the village gossip. There was a sense of being connected. And I think one of the issues now in our life at the moment, and it's not surprising, I mean, the UK has got a ministry for loneliness. And I think that is one of the big aspects of our existence at the moment, although there are lots of people who are lonely. And then they try to fill in that loneliness with nonsense. You know, it's like, it's also been globalized in a way. So, can I give you some hope? Can I give you some hope and some optimism? Yeah, yeah, yeah. One of the two words that you used in your opening address, was your hope and optimism. But I think I suppose the older I become, I am optimistic because I meet a lot of young people who remind me of my youth. And they remind me of the passion I had when I was in my 20s. Yes. Now, but there is the other aspect too, is that they are a different world. I mean, they are savvy. I mean, I am technologically challenged, for example. That's the word I think you used now, technologically challenged. And I am technologically challenged. And I decided that I want to do something about this, but my attempts have been rather pathetic. But anyway, but it's a question of actually a role. I'd like to think there's a role for elders. That's one thing the indigenous community has. And I think we need circles of elders who affirm young people to get on with it, whatever it is, and we should be encouraging them. I mean, that's just one thing that I'm in a way doing with a lot of young men that I meet, because they're terrific. They're trying to be, they're trying to be a good husband or a lover or a friend. And at the same time, they want to not come across as being chauvinistic, and they don't want to be machismo, and it's complex, because at another level, they can't express their testosterone, because they're too scared, because the women will sort of accuse them of being horrible men. So, they hold that back. They hold that back. So, there's this sort of stylized type of politically correct living that irritates me. And all they latch onto, which is like, oh, how many glasses of wine did you have? Or how many cigarettes do you smoke? Or these are sort of individual things, which are not, say, I'm against smoking, or against... What I'm saying is, it's easy to latch onto things like that for people to feel virtuous. And I'd like to think that their virtue has to go at what I would call a systemic and structural level. And that's where we need good policy and we could implement as a policy. I don't want good policy because I've read policy papers gathering dust. What we need is people who can implement it. And I've got a lot of hope and optimism. I think that's possible. And I think I'm a troubled egg when it comes to technology as well. Oh, good. Okay. But I have great hope that technology is part of that. If I look at the community that's now being formed as the... I've used the term community, but I'm actually going to... I'm trying to shift that term at the moment to movement. And we were formed as Creative Unions. We were described as so. When I came into the industry, we were doing a movement. And a movement then became an industry. And I kind of want to take it back to being a movement, a movement for positive change. The opportunity to actually create a movement is there through technology. And I see that every day in social media. I get this report on my desk every morning, which is the conversation that's occurring within social media around Bank australia and the positive things that people can do in the world with them in australia with their money. And there is a conversation that's occurring right now. If somebody is savvy enough to jump into Facebook or to Instagram or to Twitter, you'll probably see a conversation occurring somewhere in australia now around the role of money in society and the opportunity to create good in the world. So I'm actually very optimistic and have great hope that we can just rebalance the way that we see society and that we see the role of money by using technology to go back again to principles of movement creation. Go back to January, 4,000 people joined a bank because they wanted to create positive good in the world. So I'm very hopeful. It's then aligning that ambition that those people have for a better future through the way their money is invested to the issues that are important to them. And you touched on housing, and I think you touched on it, Antony, also on innovation in your opening comments. I'll give you an example of that. housing is critically important. I've always worked in the business of housing. I've built it, sold it, developed it, managed it, financed it. So housing has been core to my... I fundamentally believe that security of tenure provides better quality outcomes. It doesn't have to be... don't have to own it, you can lease it. But as long as you've got security of tenure, the evidence now, I believe, demonstrates that you have better social outcomes, economic outcomes, health outcomes, education outcomes. Security of tenure delivers quality of living. We, and the opportunity that we have through the Co-operative model is to test some new models. Let me tell you about some models that the Co-operative model enables you to attest, because we're not chasing profit maximization, we're not chasing shareholder return, we're trying to build value, wealth in different ways. Today, I had a most amazing conversation with my Impact Finance Manager around opportunities to invest in housing, house ownership for indigenous australians in partnership with the indigenous business Association of business australia, indigenous business australia Government Department. One of the things that research now shows is you can rebuild trust. trust has been lost in a range of different institutions, you will know that, whether it's in churches, whether it's in government and the like. But you can actually help rebuild trust by way of partnership, and partnership comes naturally to cooperatives. Partnerships between government and business to respond to, find solutions to social, economic, cultural issues. So we're working now with indigenous business australia to find ways where we can provide housing to indigenous australians. We can finance that housing, and the IVA and the government can actually carry some of the credit risk on that. So all of a sudden we can provide unbankable indigenous australians the opportunity to buy housing in australia, because we approach the issue differently to the way the four major banks or an investor-owned bank, they look at the profit maximisation. We look at wealth through a different lens. Another example, we entered the community housing market here in Melbourne about a decade, about 12 years ago. No bank in the country would touch it. But the Rudd government started to provide opportunities for community housing organisations, associations to take debt on. They weren't ready to take debt on. Their boards weren't ready. Their management weren't ready. We invested probably two years of time and effort in building the capability of boards and executive teams to understand how to take debt on so that it would become less of a credit risk to us. Again, the four major banks wouldn't do that because they were looking at quick profit maximisation. But the corporate model said there's a better long-term dividend that can be generated here for people and our own customers if we invest the time and effort. We did that to the point where we generated about $400 million worth of community housing investments across australia. It got to the point where the government, and this is okay, the government then introduced and or established an organisation called NIFIC, which enabled them to use the government guarantee to bring money in, to lend money to the community housing sector at a much lower price using their AAA credit rating versus our BBB plus credit rating. But guess what? It probably wouldn't have happened if the cooperative hadn't been there in the first building capacity, building capability, getting these guys to a point where they could take debt on the start to build scale. And it got way beyond the point. We've had a lot of that money refinanced out of that sector and the government's picked that up through through NIFIC. But now we've moved on to indigenous housing and then we'll move on to the next thing. And we will create markets and new opportunities because that's what a cooperative model can do. Cooperatives go into markets that don't work. They're broken markets and go, how can you fix this? How can you use the cooperative model, the cooperative principle, not based on profit maximization, but investing people's moneys in ways that create positive social environment? How can you find a business model to do that? We've just had a partnership with the Clean Energy Finance Corporation. Together with the Clean Energy Finance Corporation, we now provide the lowest cost home loan in australia, bar none. But the house has got to be sustainably designed. It's got to be one star beyond the statutory limit, which encourages people to build more sustainable design housing. We were the only financier that could sit down and have the discussion with NIFIC, because our purpose is different. Now, it will come to a point where that model is proven, and it will become of a scale that we can't do, and the four major banks will want to come in and start financing that business. Absolutely perfectly fine, because we seeded the market. And then we'll move on to the next thing. So, I've got great hope after all those years that we can redefine wealth, we can use innovation, and we can be hopeful and optimistic that in 2020 the Co-operative Model can still help find ways to create better quality outcomes, social, environmental, cultural, economic outcomes for people. Really, really hopeful. I'm a bit sad that I'm about to hit 60 and I'm going to go and retire, because there's so much time and so much opportunity in front of us that can still do good. Yeah, but don't retire. There's lots of things to do. I'm going to go to Italy, as you know, and live in a community which is a very strong community in the village where I have a home, which is really built on a cooperative economy. I think Antony is here. I hate to break into this conversation, but I would like to give anyone here present an opportunity to ask a question. because this is a dialogue, you can ask a question to Basil or you can ask a question to Rowan. Now, Sonia actually has a rosing mic here and we have our first hand up there. So, we'll probably take two or three questions and then take a little bit from there. Hi Rowan, I'm changing banks tomorrow. I feel like a lot of us aren't very good at teaching our kids financial literacy and schools are very good at either. Even people who like know what they're doing in their own lives don't do a very good job. They don't even do anything about teaching their kids financial literacy. So, is there an opportunity to have a bank for kids or some kind of separate program that really targets kids and encourages them to save and inspires them to be financially independent? That's a very hard. A bank for kids. Well, a friend of mine wanted to do that, but she didn't end up being out to do it because she got sick. Really? You know, it's been a frustration. I think the Co-operative Movement, the Mutual Banking Movement in australia has done some really, really cool things. But it's missed some amazing opportunities along the way too. You know, the fact that the Dolomites Commonwealth Bank got in, and it was very clever. And you probably saw that it's been accused of grooming kids in a nice possible way. But they were very clever and very shrewd the way they did it. They paid the schools. Schools are always looking for money. So the Commonwealth Bank paid the schools for every account that they opened. And as a consequence of that, many of you probably had Dolomite accounts. And it's amazing. Everybody had a Dolomite. The penetration was amazing. So I hope that we've got to burn that, right? I hope that through the hope and the optimism and the things that we're talking about, re-educating people about the role of money in society. I mean, I've sent in so many of focus groups over the years where you talk to people about, here's the question that we often ask people in australia. What does a bank do with your money? And I've had people say they put it in a safe. And then you ask, or the researcher says, and then, so when you go in and do a withdrawal, what do you think happens? And they say, well, they take it out of the safe. But the level of financial literacy in this country is beyond belief, is so low. People do not understand what banks do with their money. And part of our campaigning at the moment is to demonstrate that banks do some good things and they do some bad things. So if you don't want your money financing fossil fuels in the country, don't bank with the full major banks. If you don't want your money financing live export trade in australia, or tobacco or gambling or weapons and things, don't bank with the full major banks. So I'm hoping that we're trying to seed a process of educating australians around the role of money. My strategy to do that, my long-term plan is actually not to start with the kids. It's to try to get the adults, the parents to understand that the power of money and get them to educate their kids. Now we went out to our customers at the beginning of the year and said to them, we do this every year, who'd like to be the face of Bank australia in 2020? You can imagine any other bank asking that question. Like nobody would ever respond. Who'd want to be the face of NAB or Combank? Like you'd get nothing back. So we put that out and we've got to shut it down within 12 hours because we just get overwhelmed. So within 12 hours we're 160 people. Not only say they want to be the face of Bank australia, but they gave us their story and the amazing things that they're doing in their life and the pictures and the whole thing. About number three that came in was a five year old who said, I put my pocket money with Bank australia because I want to save the animals. So he becomes one of the faces of Bank australia and we will tell those stories out across the country. And I'm hoping that my five year old is telling the stories around the role of money is as powerful as an adult telling the story about the role of money and getting to the younger kids. But our average age, one of the things that we were running a risk of in terms of the business back in the early 90s when we said we could have changed, we could have do some stuff, we were going to fall off a cliff around age and customer base. And if we had not made a change, we would have, we would have had a whole bunch of older customers, long standing older customers, they were all big depositors, nobody borrowing, the business would not be sustainable. So over the years, we've driven down the average age of customer. So that 34 average age in January 30, the average age, we're probably the only bank in the country where the average age of customer is coming down. And it's coming down because people hope, optimism, the role of money in the society. So will I get to the point where it's a bank for kids? I'll probably won't get to the point where they're all kids. But getting younger kids is really, really important. Question over there, somewhere. Sonya, I'll get you to choose because there's lots of hands up. We'll probably take two more questions. Well, I'll try and be short so you can. I borrowed some years back $75,000 from the Credit Union. Actually, it's now part of CUA, Credit Union australia, but it wasn't there. And I moved a house on a small piece of fair land, 52 by 18 meters. I moved an existing house that was going to be demolished. No bank would have given me that money at all. And I got the permit from the local council. I don't know how I got it. And that was turning to three separate well-built units for clients of Kildonan. All right. Yeah. Okay. It was such a small thing. I mean, you can't even say it's a model to copy because it's one. But without the money with the credit union, it took me five years to pay it back. I couldn't have done it. I've been with the credit union for 35 years now. And so have my children. And the living and learning center around for 25 years, no longer, but I did then. Everyone in there working or many of the students were banking with some credit union. just copy that. You don't have to do much effort. And recently, Brother Wilson Lawrence in the monthly lunches had two people from, actually one of them was Trent Hall, to talk about cooperatives. And I would like you to keep them in mind, to invite them perhaps again. I mean, one of them was from the CFMEU. He's a lovely, lovely big guy. You never know, he's really muscle, you could ask him. But he's working on cooperatives. And I think we need to spread that kind of knowledge. I'll take that as a comment, Ivana, because we've got to, as Tony Jones says, take one from... Yes, sorry. You still have your question? My question's too big, go ahead. Is that last question, or? One here and then one there. Thank you, Rowan. Sorry, Basil, but Rowan, you mentioned about credit unions losing their way and banks losing their way. It's wonderful what's happening with Bank australia and credit unions. What's in, in, in process there to ensure that it retains its purpose? My work in other institutions that are value based, that's the issue. How do you ensure the sustainability in the future of that? I think there's a couple of ways. There's, and let me give you two, two, two answers. The first is to continually prove that the business model is successful, that it works. Now when I, I remember when I fronted up to the board in 20, in 2002 and said we're going to take a different direction, no longer jobs in geography, no longer teachers and scientists, attitudes and values, just trust me. But when you the... The board at that time said, what's the evidence? And I said, I can't give you any, just trust me, trust the science, trust the evidence that we've done. So part of it is good governance and a board that is, the founders that Antony referred to at the beginning, and I've read that paragraph out to our own board, good governance, being bold and being brave, and sitting around that board for all the right reasons, not the wrong reasons, that's part of good governance, a strong sense of purpose and that recognized in your constitution and the like, very, very clear. So good governance will hold it true. Another element of that is being able to measure and measure the performance of the business, not on profit maximization, but on impact, correct, how the values are derived, delivering wealth defined differently, value defined differently. So we will become, you might have heard B Corp, we will become a B Corp in australia. A purpose based business, a purpose led business, with a really, really strong sense, there were criteria around measurement in terms of community, in terms of environmental impact, in terms of governance, in terms of workforce. So building systems into the business that actually provide the level of discipline that's required to ensure that this is part of the DNA of the organization is critically, critically important. But at the end of the day, why is it, why don't you, once I leave, once I leave, how do we keep it going? Part of my process, the last five years really has been making sure that we really got good leadership transition in place, transition program and succession in place. So I've got my replacement all lined up. Fiona Nixon is sitting there already going. And that's a process of recognizing that we won't be here forever, clearly. But at least make sure that we've got people who share the same principles and values and experiences that are standing right next to us, that can step into those roles when we step away. And I joke with the guys and joke with Fiona, that now I'm going to sit in my little village over in Italy and just be amazed at the incredible things that they will have achieved when I've stepped away because they're cleverer than I will ever be. They will do things that I will just, I could never even imagine, because we've put that in place. So good governance, good processes, systems that measure and report on the things that are important and good succession plan is my, the approach that I've taken to say this can't change. Oh, I should say, there's no, there's no, there's not a conversation in the business. And we're going into board planning at the moment. There's not a single conversation in the business of saying, we should do anything different. No, no, I'm not saying that, but we've seen lots of institutions have lost their way. Yeah, and we did, we've been there, we did that in the late 90s. So, then it becomes so critical. What structures and processes do we put in place there? It tries to minimize it. Yeah, correct. Yeah. Yes, I was very impressed by your objective of trying to redefine wealth. I think that's what you said, wasn't it? It seems to me this is the important thing to do. And I wonder if you have any opinions or observations about anything that is taught currently in schools or universities about economics and what they say about the Co-operative and the credit union sector because, you know, it seems to me that it's almost non-existent. It's almost invisible. And that this idea of changing the concepts through education would be a tough thing to do. Yeah. No, we've said, I was saying to Basil, beginning of this being, something that, and Antony will remember, is something that we did in 2012. In 2012 was the International Year of the Co-operative. And at the end of the International Year of the Co-operative, and I think Melina is coming on to speak at one of these events, Melina Morrison. She and I were working on the International Year of the Co-operative in 2012. And we said at the end of this, there's got to be a legacy. What do we do after this? Don't know. It wasn't just a year and then you forget it. What do we do? So we, in the guideline name, Greg Walton, Melina Morrison and I said, we're going to establish the business Council for Co-operatives and Mutuals. We're going to have a business council that represents all Co-operatives and Mutuals, whether they're farming, dairy, whether they're financial, whether they're health insurance, whether they're roadside, Co-operatives and Mutuals in the country. And then we defined, well, if you set that up, what are some of the things that we're going to try and achieve? I was staggered that in australia, you could complete an MBA and you had no comp set, no awareness whatsoever of other business models, other than pretty much our partnership, the investor owned. But Co-operatives and Mutuals were not in the curriculum on any MBA anywhere in the country in 2012. I'm advised that they are now. Not in every one, but they are. You can now complete an MBA on Co-operative and Mutual Enterprise business. I remember sitting at a panel here in Melbourne, with one of the very large law firms, very, very large law firms in Melbourne. I won't say who it was because I'm embarrassed by saying it. But the guy was really nice. He said, you're the Co-operative blogger. I said, I'm coming to here. I'm talking about Co-operative. I said, as a courtesy, I'll let you know, I advise all my clients not ever to form a Co-operative or a Mutual. seriously? Why would you do that? He goes, I always advise my clients to become a company under the Corporations Act, because that provides the best, the robust structure for a company. And I said to this guy, we're operated, we're a Mutual, but we operate under the Corporations Act. We're a company, a company limited by a shareholder vote. That's, we are, we operate under the Corps Act, and we're a Mutual. And now the Corps Act actually has been changed, through the business Council have changed the Corps Act, so it does recognise Mutual as a status within the Corporations Act, but then it didn't. But I said, we're a company. So I don't know why you would even say that. So when we got up onto the panel, and we're talking about different ownership models, I said, you know what, folks, there's even lawyers in this city that would advise people not to become a Co-operative because they don't even know that we exist under the Corporations Act. That level of ignorance is beyond belief. But the business council is starting to get that into the curriculum now. To get people to understand that cooperatives is a very valid form. Mutuals is a very valid form. And you can be a mutual that exists in the Corps Act. And the Corps Act now, we've got the legislation changed. The Corporations Act now says mutual, defines mutual. Mutual is never defined. The Corporations Act now states you can be a co-op, a company under the Corporations Act and a mutual. And this is the definition of mutual. It's there. It's done. So even the lawyers can't use that as an excuse anymore. It's there. Yeah. I feel sorry for this gentleman here. He said he had a very big question. So I'll put a challenge to you. If you can find the smallest part, most important part of that question, or I can wrap it up. Okay. How can we expand the mutual cooperative model fast because we have an infrastructure that's been built, that is a pyramid of growth, profit, growth, profit, and returns to shareholders? And how, I don't think that we're going to achieve the definition of the society that we want until we break that model? And what's a couple of good sledgehammers to try? There you go. So a couple of them. My first sledgehammer was the business Council Copies and Mutuals. Anthony mentioned a number before. About eight out of ten australians are actually members of a Co-operative Mutual member-owned organisation and don't even know it. So creating a sense of awareness that you are part of something that actually is around member ownership is really, really critically important. And that's part of the role of the business Council Copies and Mutuals, just to get it into the curriculum, work with government. So every party now has a Minister for Co-operatives and Mutuals, should have gone, a Minister with a responsibility for Co-operatives or Mutuals never existed before. So some of this is part of the process. But you know, I think that it's interesting, when we've got record customer acquisition now, they're not joining us because of our ownership model. They're not joining us because we're cooperative or mutual, they probably won't even know that. They're joining us because of a strong sense of purpose and values alignment. And I think that's probably, I can pretty much shut a conversation down instantly by talking about cooperative or mutual ownership structures. I can do it, I can get, I can put you into a hypnotic trance. But I think I would be able to engage you on a conversation around the role of money in society and how we can create better social, environmental, economic, cultural outcomes if we invest money differently. So we as a movement industry, I hope we will one day become a movement again, have to learn how to have the conversation with people using a language that resonates with them and they understand and they want to engage back with us. Unfortunately, a lot of us have used really as language that just shut people down. We've got to use a different language. Well, I think we've come to the end of the evening. So thank you for being here. And thank you, Rowan, because I think you've created a whole new client group here. And people are going to be quite committed to it. And all I wanted to say is that I really appreciate the fact that you've given away how people can actually use their money and to use it with purpose and meaning. And I think that's what we're... just one question I'll ask. You know, there's a great recruitment that you've got. I'm curious, it was huge numbers. Did they all... Did you get a sense to whether they actually were cooperating with others or was it just a very individualistic stance? It sounds like a Dorothy... Dorothy Dixon sounds like a Dorothy Dixon question. I don't know if I should finish on this or not, because we haven't discussed this before. Why I'm so confident, hopeful, that we can return to be a movement of people is that for every customer who joins the bank, they tell 11 other people that they've joined the bank, and they do so with great pride, which is amazing. There's no other bank in the country where people say, I've actually just shifted my banking to Bank australia, and they tell 11, that's their numbers, 11 other people. What was amazing when we went to them and said, okay, well, that sounds really good. Maybe we can encourage you to do more of that. What could we do? What do you need? What would you want as an incentive? Did you... Could we incentivize you by giving you something? And they know what they said. If you did that, I'd stop doing it. We want nothing from you. Nothing. We're doing it out because we believe in it. So don't give us money. Don't give us give outs. There's nothing whatsoever. Give us nothing other than give us, make us proud to be a customer of the bank. And we will continue to tell people to switch their banking. That's why I'm so confident that we can rebuild the movement of people that brings about positive change. And that's what the Power of Co-operative Bonds is about. Well, that's great because I think it brings in line just with the sort of community development stuff that Antony and I have been involved with in the past. There's a thing which I call the Power of Five. And the Power of Five is this basically, if five people got together, they could actually harness another five each. So I was just thinking whether your bank could be an initiator to test ideas what people would like to do and to be able to start that movement that we both cherish. Absolutely. Let's talk. Let's talk. And I think that's a really good note to end on. And I would really like to thank both Basil and Rowan for being part of this conversation tonight. And why I think it's a good note to end on is that the legal minimum number to form a cooperative is, guess how many people? Five. Exactly. So you've hit the right number. So I'd really again like to thank both speakers. I've learnt a lot. I think we've gone into the history. I've learnt a lot about Bank australia. And I'd also like to recognize Craig who's here from APS Benefits. It's also a kind of a financial cooperative that I'm a member of personally. So it's great to have some other stakeholders in the audience. I'd really like to thank, this has been a new kind of thing that we're trying tonight. And I'd really like to thank Brian who's recorded tonight. And I would really like to thank Shannon who's been taking some photographs tonight. Both of these people are out there doing amazing art, doing kind of amazing things in the IT area. So have a chat to them afterwards. Now, we do have a little card here for Rowan. Now, in some ways it's quite sad. It's just a card, but it's not a big bottle of wine. It's not a bunch of flowers. But it is a card with a heartfelt message. And it's a card that is hand made, made in New Zealand, with sustainable ink and those kind of things. And the card features a circle of wise owls. So that's really what we're trying to achieve tonight, is getting a circle of wise owls. That includes you as well. So I'll just give you that, Rowan. Thank you, Rowan. And lastly, do we have some feathers for you? I'd like to thank Sonia, my board member in the Co-operative causeway, who will grab that little tankard of feathers. Now, what do you think these tankards represent? Any guesses? A drink on your way out. Grab a feather, head down to the bar, and thank you to Rowan and Bank australia for the generosity. Thank you very much for coming.

See also

• Basil's Table — Building Co-operative Futures in the Tech Bros Era (2022) — the final Basil's Table panel, on cooperative futures and "the billionaire problem"
• Beyond Corporate Social Responsibility towards Economic Democracy (2020) — the cooperatives talk this event provided background for, also featuring Antony McMullen
• 888 Co-operative Causeway · Co-operative Bonds
• Cooperative · Economic Democracy